Curse

Silverblad3 · Feb 25, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

One of the things that I think befalls many new people and some of the current players is that the role of the mesmer in PvE is not clearly scoped or defined, or made aware of, it does not help that many view the skill selection of mesmers with little knowledge of them. I do play mesmer and enjoy it with the current skills, of course would love buffs but I know what I can do in elite areas and HM.

I also use my heroes and Gwen when on other classes, my monk heores carry leech and power drain and have no problems whatsoever.

If Anet are going to buff the mesmer in future I think they need to address the general role of the mesmer in PvE to enlighten those that are blind to the class to their abilities and role.

However, I have no real faith in Anet, their promises, delayed updates and sometimes pointless updates and content that offer very little.

Have fun!

Silver

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Take SS from Necro and it doesnt look much better

Take SS from a necro and he still has Discord, AotL, Soul Reaping, and a bunch of other good skills. When it comes to heroes, Bone Minions + Death Nova plus anything else. So what do we have? Barbs, MoP, SoLS, OoU, Orders, Enfeebling, battery skills, etc.

Take SS away and you have 200 other useful skills, plus secondaries which you can efficiently use.

Quote:

The thing why Mesmer is so weak, is because they nerfed the signature skill VoR.

Mesmer isn't weak because of one skill. If someone wants non-crippled mesmer he should not be playing VoR, or else. Necromancer has plenty of gameplay choices, for instance.

drkn · Feb 25, 2010, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

I do play mesmer and enjoy it with the current skills, of course would love buffs but I know what I can do in elite areas and HM.

tell us, please. fast cast RoJ? fast cast wards? fast cast SS?

Silverblad3 · Feb 25, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

tell us, please. fast cast RoJ? fast cast wards? fast cast SS?

Generally it is a VoR mes (with 2/3 additional interrupts) and PD for kicks. Last time I used her was HM Frostmaw, was a piece of cake.

Want to try Power Block soon, I used PD in FA as well recently and did not lose a match, had great fun using it.

I never really thought of a using ROJ on my mes, as if I want to I hop onto my monk.

Again, I really think the mesmer still needs a defined role and that role should be more focused in PvE by anet as it is they who are telling us hwo they want us to play the game.

Have fun

Silver

drkn · Feb 25, 2010, 01:03 PM // 13:03

you see, the only viable pve elite skill, VoR, was nerfed because of pvp imbalance. even your general option for pve was nerfed.
the fact that you can easily roll pve with heroes and henches doesn't mean that your character is useful. please refer here for all mesmer problems (in pve) in one massive post.

if mesmers are not underpowered for pve, because they can complete the game, then all other classes are overpowered because they can complete it much faster, more stable and with more useful skills available.

Silverblad3 · Feb 25, 2010, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

you see, the only viable pve elite skill, VoR, was nerfed because of pvp imbalance. even your general option for pve was nerfed.
the fact that you can easily roll pve with heroes and henches doesn't mean that your character is useful. please refer here for all mesmer problems (in pve) in one massive post.

if mesmers are not underpowered for pve, because they can complete the game, then all other classes are overpowered because they can complete it much faster, more stable and with more useful skills available.

I agree entirely that compared to other classes they are not up to that 'role'. I would hesitate to use underpowered (I do agree btw). Again it depends on how good the mesmer is, can they target the right foes, prioritise between key targets and interrupt key skills? Regardless, I believe Anet failed to give the mesmer a defined and useful role in PvE, this has left the mesmer mostly in the dark compared to other classes with a limited selection of primary elites. If Anet had scoped a PvE role then we would not be here today, and to be honest I still have little faith that nearly 5 years on that they can address this appropriately.

Have fun!

Silver

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverblad3

Generally it is a VoR mes (with 2/3 additional interrupts) and PD for kicks.

That's subpar HM build, I am sorry.. Im glad you like it and have fun with it though.

Quote:

Last time I used her was HM Frostmaw, was a piece of cake

As I said,

Mesmer vs Mission = bad comparisons. You can't say whether a build is good or not if you compare it to a mission. You can go to Services Offered subforum on Guru. You will see that many people offer to do something (dungeon, mission, vq) for money. This means you go afk and that's it. They finished the task with 7 or 5 or 3 people. Or just 1. Obviously you can't evaluate how good is your build when even without your character the mission can be done easily.

Mesmer vs non-Mesmer in Mission X = this is how you can compare it.
You say your mes build is good in HM Frostmaw. Excellent. I'm sure some non-mesmer here will demonstrate you how he can do it better. ANYTHING YOU CAN DO..

Silverblad3 · Feb 25, 2010, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Mesmer vs Mission = bad comparisons. You can't say whether a build is good or not if you compare it to a mission. You can go to Services Offered subforum on Guru. You will see that many people offer to do something (dungeon, mission, vq) for money. This means you go afk and that's it. They finished the task with 7 or 5 or 3 people. Or just 1. Obviously you can't evaluate how good is your build when even without your character the mission can be done easily.

Mesmer vs non-Mesmer in Mission X = this is how you can compare it.
You say your mes build is good in HM Frostmaw. Excellent. I'm sure some non-mesmer here will demonstrate you how he can do it better. ANYTHING YOU CAN DO..

I agree with all you say, Mesmers are sub par because Anet failed to give them a defined role in PvE, and you can synergise a mesmer to a party, are they the best choice in HM, Missions and Elite areas? I doubt it, but nonetheless we currently have little choice due to Anet...

All I am saying is that you can play them and you can play them effectively, and there are always better ways to do things. Regardless and I will say it again, I doubt Anet will do anything about mesmers or for that matter Paragons. And to the OP, Necros are far better overall compared to mesmer in PvE, but you can still use a mesmer...

Have fun!

Silver

Olim Chill · Feb 25, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Take SS from Necro and it doesnt look much better,

Amazing. There are still people out there that would imply that SS is all the Necromancer profession has going for it.

trankle · Feb 25, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I'll toss one idea out. PvE only, of course:

1. Change all multiple-target Mesmer hexes to single-target.
2. Add to the existing functionality of Fast Casting: "For every four* points in FC, your Mesmer hexes affect one additional nearby foe".
3. Tweak any Mesmer hexes that this overpowers.

*or five, if four were too overpowered

This would benefit primary Mesmers only, and in my opinion, would make a good case for bringing a Mesmer in a team.

Del · Feb 25, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

Take SS from Necro and it doesnt look much better, take Save Yourselves from the imbagon and so on.

Bitches don't know about my Icy Veins.

MagmaRed · Feb 25, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I'll toss one idea out. PvE only, of course:

1. Change all multiple-target Mesmer hexes to single-target.
2. Add to the existing functionality of Fast Casting: "For every four* points in FC, your Mesmer hexes affect one additional nearby foe".
3. Tweak any Mesmer hexes that this overpowers.

*or five, if four were too overpowered

This would benefit primary Mesmers only, and in my opinion, would make a good case for bringing a Mesmer in a team.

At the same time, that would buff to insane levels a few skills, and destroy to useless a few others. I'll pick a couple of examples.

NERF:
Clumsiness - currently effects as many monsters as are in range, which can be up to 10-15 for certain areas. With maxed out FC at 16, it would only hit 5. And since most people running Mesmer take Dom/Illusion+Inspiration/Secondary+FC, this would make builds decline.

BUFF:
Backfire - see a group of casters? destroy them all with 1 spell and time for them to cast 2-4 spells (depends on level of monster).

Would cause far more balance issues than it would even try to fix, and the fixes would most likely be short lived as many would be over powered and on the nerf block for the next update.

Miss Puddles · Feb 25, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olim Chill

Amazing. There are still people out there that would imply that SS is all the Necromancer profession has going for it.

Or that VoR is all the Mesmer profession has going for it.

Shriketalon · Feb 25, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

I'll toss one idea out. PvE only, of course:

1. Change all multiple-target Mesmer hexes to single-target.
2. Add to the existing functionality of Fast Casting: "For every four* points in FC, your Mesmer hexes affect one additional nearby foe".
3. Tweak any Mesmer hexes that this overpowers.

Better plan: use an elite or Ether Nightmare like a hex-based Epidemic, moving all mesmer hexes on the target to all adjacent foes, and the duration of these hexes is decreased by 90....50 percent (based on Fast Casting, more FC means less reduction).

The Drunkard · Feb 25, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Disease existed in all civilizations, which proves what?
Skills are not balanced for farming (except sometimes some are nerfed because of farming) but it has been no intention of ANet to make professions equally good at farming. It just happens that sometimes some build is more suitable to farming, that's all.

The core of farming is skill IMbalance. That's what farming is based on. Therefore, all debate about farming should go to farming section, not to skill balance section. I dont mind if you farm all day long, but it really has no point to discuss farming in this thread.

I can tell you love arguing for the sake of arguing. I was not debating about the integrity of farming, but listing builds where /me secondary skills were used. Instead of refuting my argument with proof that no said builds exist or are effective, you decided to go completly off topic about how you don't believe in farming. Please stop trying to side-step my points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Non farming wiki build pls.

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

For the sake of convienience and space, I will only post some of the builds deemed "most effective" by the pvx community (farming and running left out for your sake.)

Ok, let's put it this way: "I don't know how popular mesmer secondary skills are in General HM PvE area, so can we please get some field data from real random players in some General HM areas."

I say "I don't know" so we stop with this bickering and do some scientific test not for the sake of debate but more for the sake of curiosity.

Ok I know it's not perfect representation but right now im again in ZM area (Nahpui). I open Party window and secondaries... well no one has out of 13 people Me secondary. Few minutes ago there was one necro who used it, and few minutes before that also I managed to catch one Me secondary but he left fast and couldnt ask if he used any Me skills. Ok I waited few more min. 12 people now, only 1 with Me secondary. He doesn't use Me skills. I wait few more min. Comes another guy with Me secondary. He is also Rt like the last one and has no Me skills at all. Right now I waited more and no Me secondaries at all in party window. I wait more.. 14 people in party window right now. Another Me secondary comes (Rt). He 'sometimes uses some interrupts', but when I asked him what about now he didnt reply. I'll take liberty to interpret it as a 'no'.
In a spam of... cca 10 min I could find only 1 person using mesmer secondary skills in party window. Granted, non-me secondaries don't always use secondary skills either.

drkn · Feb 26, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

taking a look at 13-20 people is not scientific. check spamadan for 2 hours daily for a week. that might be scientific. still, tells us nothing.
sorry Josip, even though i strongly argued for mesmers everywhere i could, i can't see any reasoning in your last posts.

Lanier · Feb 26, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

wow... dont we already have enough QQ threads for mesmers? How many more are we going to create.

Oh, and I normally dont use necros at all as heroes. I use an E/Mo ER protter, a Rit minion bomber, and a me/mo interupt/supporter (with interupts and damage skills like empathy from the dom. line and a couple of monk support skills)

The Drunkard · Feb 26, 2010, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Ok, let's put it this way: "I don't know how popular mesmer secondary skills are in General HM PvE area, so can we please get some field data from real random players in some General HM areas."

Alright, if you want data I have a few suggestions:
1) Conduct a poll on Guru. Although it will host very biased answers, it gives a general outline of what people who interact on a constant basis on forums feel.
2) Random surveys of different areas of the game. Ask people what builds they use, what builds their heroes use, and what builds they've seen from recent team mates.
3) Random screenshots of different areas of the game. Go to districts you want to test at predetermined times and see how many people have /me floating over their head. I reccomend this the least because unless you ask the person, you have no idea what they are using.

happy hunting

The Josip · Feb 26, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

MESMERS GOT SKILL UPDATE AFTER ALL!! REJOICE PEOPLE!

Mesmer

* Power Block Power Block: decreased disabling time to 1...8...12 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

taking a look at 13-20 people is not scientific.

Wrong. Taking a look at 1 person is scientific already.

Where's your data? Oh wait you don't have it. But you can criticize others. Disgusting and twisted.